I am a huge fan of Revenge Wife, her music is always inventive and new, her inspirations are always niche and interesting, and her stage presence is unmatched. Her new song "Saying Nothing" feels so fresh, it's intoxicating. We talked about brat pop, being fascinated by aging, and the double-edged sword of social media.
Tell me about your new song "Saying Nothing"
Revenge Wife: "Saying Nothing" is a song about all of these thoughts put down. There are a lot of thoughts about unconditional love, especially once it gets to the chorus. It's like, "You can take your heartbreak turn it into spring break, I promise that I'll love it," trying to be like anything could've happened to you and you could've acted in any terrible way. I feel like the concept of going crazy at Spring break isn't something that makes people proud. So, to me, it's this line like you could've gone through anything, and I wouldn't judge you for it. Then, in the verses, there are all of these ways that I'm not acting completely right. I felt frozen in my anxiety, and I didn't say it because I couldn't stop saying nothing.
Tell me about the production of it.
Revenge Wife: I started working with my friend Kory Burell; I wrote it by myself, and then I brought it to Kory. It's crazy. He and I taught together in the Bronx. We were teaching together all year long. I was like, "I love Kory. He's such a good vibe," I thought he was really cool. Then we started making music together, with this being the first one. He also opened me up, having those breakthrough moments are rare. He was like, what if we add autotune? That sound with the rock reminded me of The Voidz. That song happened, and then Fontaines D.C. released their song Starbuster, which I'm just obsessed with. I was like, "I see my future now," I feel like this song was a turning point for me production-wise.
I feel like you have the best sonic influences. You're always doing something new.
Revenge Wife: I think that's what makes it feel fun. I don't feel stuck in any way. I've written for so many other artists in the studio, and I've been in sessions so many times with artists where we make a song that we're all vibing on, and they're like, "That doesn't feel like me," and I never wanted to be someone who limited myself. I was a little nervous about that with the whole Italo Disco, and I've been going really hard on that, and we're at a place where you have to niche down, and "Fantasy Girl" is so ABBA and so Italo Disco and that song did really well for me so I'm like how can I make music that sounds like The Voids and Fontaines DC or do, but I'm not yet, but I want to. It's a conversation I have with myself.
I'm like, release whatever you want. Everyone says niche down, but people contain multitudes.
Revenge Wife: It's so tricky right now with social media. We're all feeling it. You put out one thing, and it does well, and you put out something else that's different, and it doesn't do as well. We're all thinking, "I just want to do well so I can do this forever," but then it keeps up in this place where we keep doing that thing.
I heard someone say be careful with what you post because if you go viral for something that's going to be the thing you have to do forever.
Revenge Wife: That's interesting, it's tricky I'm trying to figure it out right now with social media. That one of me dancing, it has 23 million plays right now. I've gotten like 20,000 followers right now.
What was nice about that reel is it's you performing. I've seen your show, that is a Revenge Wife concert. You handle the trolls well, but they must be really annoying.
Revenge Wife: It's crazy; on one hand, I did feel like, okay, FINALLY, about going viral. I've been posting and making shit for YEARS. So it's cool that it's taking off and it's cool that it's connected to my show. Even though there's so much hate around it. At the very least, I'm on stage doing my music. When it first happened, I was like fuck, these people are hating on me, and it is during my show, so is there going to be this thing where I'm embarrassed about it… we're in a really crazy time.
I think the latest shift in social media and in media influencing life is making people less compassionate. It makes people look at things and see them as less human. That's what I'm seeing with this social media stuff. I understand feeling so angry and looking at something online and feeling angry, I'm sure I've been there. All of these people are so angry about sexualization and music, and it's so much projection. The majority of them are men, they must be musicians themselves, and they're pissed off.
You're so nice about it; I think it's easier; it's people hiding behind a keyboard. They never have a profile, and they're letting their rage out. Revenge Wife shows are some of my favorite shows I've seen live, the detail you put into it and I think people aren't used to seeing an artistic show. You're not just singing on stage.
Revenge Wife: The funny thing is, people comment, "I would never go to this show," like, dude, you would never come to this show in the first place.
All your trolls should have to go. They would never admit they had a good time.
Revenge Wife: It's interesting, I've always gotten a polarizing reaction to my show. People are like, "What is this?" With HOLYCHILD, we used to record all of our shows to listen to and then listen when we were driving in the fan. We'd literally hear people's hate comments because they would be near the soundboard. There was one recording that was really funny. We've opened for a lot of people, so I'm used to getting there and arms being closed at first and then pulling them out. I do love that process live, and in person, it's easy because you can be there with each other, and it can unfold. I love doing that.
I want to talk about Brat summer and The Shape of Brat Pop To Come, you made a TikTok about this, can you tell me about that album and that sound, I feel like it's influenced so much.
Revenge Wife: It's so interesting to talk about because I don't think Charli XCX copied or anything, it has to be said by me before I talk about it. It feels so cool and inspiring to be a part of the wave of art and I really do feel like artists who tap into a certain thing are all tapping into it together. That's why we all have these experiences where we have an idea, and someone else who is adjacent to us does it. In my more immature days ten years ago, twelve years ago, I used to be like, "They go try computer files. They must've figured it out. They knew, someone I knew told them that I was doing that," and now I'm realizing that's not the case what's really happening is we're all feeding off the same things, especially now even more because social media is condensing what we see. So we're all seeing the same thing, and from that, we think, "You know what I'm not seeing…this thing, I want to make that thing," and other people are doing that too. With HOLYCHILD, our debut album was The Shape Of Brat Pop To Come, and to us, Brat Pop was something we coined, and we defined it as pop music that was social commentary. We determined that we were doing that, but we were also like, and these artists have been doing it as well. I was super inspired by Marina and Lana Del Rey. There are so many artists who have done it before us.
I do think HOLYCHILD had an impact on especially other artists; when I talk to artists, I'm like, "I'm in HOLYCHILD," and they're like, "Oh, I remember HOLYCHILD." I remember being in the office of my label and he was like, "What do you want to be like, Sinead O' Connor" and I was like, "Yes, that's exactly who I want to be like," and he was like "No No stop it with the politics no one wants to hear the politics we just want to dance," and I think we were just so ahead of our time. I think had we been releasing the music of HOLYCHILD with all of the lyrics at the time now it would be so poignant but we needed to release it then so that everybody else can do that. I really don't know what to make of it, it's such a personal thing…we were really gaslit into thinking HOLYCHILD failed. You guys didn't do it, and when me and Louie split, it was from that place…I was so depressed and anxious, and in 2015, at the height of all of this.
Touching on Charli now, I think it's so beautiful. She is such an incredible artist; I've obviously been watching her career since, like, 2014; we were always kind of alongside her. We played shows with her, and she was like, let's write some music together, and we didn't end up working together. We opened for her a few times and did festivals together. I think that just inherently, when you're a woman who is honest and who has aged in the public eye like Charli has, what she's making now is so beautiful and raw, and it touches upon so many of these things we were talking about in brat pop especially "I think about it all the time," or "girl, so confusing" and it feels cool. Unless you were there and remember HOLYCHILD, it might be hard to conceptualize, and I think that's part of the reason I've been shy to talk about it. I really look up to Charli XCX as a person who's just been relentless and so persistent and who's releases so much and she's so prolific and the quality is always really great. I feel really inspired by her.
Anyone who is interested in the indie sleaze revival and doesn't know HOLYCHILD isn't doing their research. Last time we talked, we talked about you being in your 30s and being worried about doing pop music as you get older. How do you feel about that now?
Revenge Wife: I'm about to be 36, and on one hand, I have all the human emotions, which are like, "Have I accomplished enough at this age? Am I doing enough things? Have I done enough? Am I successful enough for myself at this age?" There's a lot of that going on in my head, but at the same time, I guess I feel like everything I do is subtly martyring myself, like, "I must release this song for the betterment of the society; I don't care what relationships I fuck up for it." Now I'm like, "I must be a woman who is getting older and talking about it for the betterment of culture." I think I like those conversations; I've always been fascinated by aging. I think it's inspiring to get older and learn myself more.
I think a lot of women who are making music at like 36 are not making music about aging as much, I'd like to see that more as a narrative especially since society pressures you to stay young. I would like to see women embrace their aging because it's cool and it's a gift.
Revenge Wife: I'm sure at some point I'll be like, "I want Botox" or something, but I'm not doing anything like that. I'm trying to be so natural in myself. There's no harm in it; it's just I feel that I have a platform, and because I have a platform, I really want to be like, "Look, I'm getting older," I also think that we're in a weird place right now because we all consume the same social media. When I hang out with my 15-year-old niece, we're talking about the same pop culture stuff. So we're all into the same things, and because of that, I think that changes what age is. There are so many cool thoughts about it. More than aging, the thing that I think about is what is my reality? What is my life like? And is my life the way I want it to be, and how can I keep shifting in it to make it different so I can keep experiencing newness?
What would you say to your little HOLYCHILD self to get her through her tough days?
Revenge Wife: If I could speak to myself ten years ago, I do this meditation a lot. Sometimes, I think about myself in the future, and I say, "Please offer out your hand and take me with you. Please pull me through this and help me out." And then sometimes I think of my past self, and I do that to her because I'm sure he would've wanted that too, and I can offer my hand and bring her a bit closer because 2016-2018 were really hard years for me and I don't even know how I made it through I'd say that everything that she thinks is right, and just keep staying in it and when it implodes it's okay. When everything falls away, that's alright because you'll still be there, and you can trust yourself.
Keep up with Revenge Wife on Instagram, Spotify, and TikTok.
Emily Treadgold
